Teacher Healer Podcast
Teacher Healer Podcast listen here
TRANSCRIPT
00:00:00 Janine
Megan Corcoran spent over 11 years teaching and leading in alternative schools for young people who have experienced trauma and or significant disadvantage during that time.
00:00:11 Janine
She worked as a school leader in Australia's largest alternative school. She studied a Masters in applied positive psychology and her teaching practice.
00:00:20 Janine
Is trauma informed and grounded in well being science?
00:00:23 Janine
Megan is also an experienced workshop facilitator, coach and consultant and Co.
00:00:28 Janine
Founder of teachers.
00:00:29 Janine
Well, that provides well being communities for teachers and aims to generate teacher lead well being initiatives in.
00:00:36 Janine
Listen to us discuss the importance of slow teaching and building deep connections with colleagues will also brainstorm potential solutions to some of the biggest challenges facing the profession.
00:00:46 Janine
Post pandemic.
00:00:58 Janine
Megan, welcome to the Teacher Healer podcast, it's great to have you.
00:01:02 Janine
Thanks very much for having me.
00:01:03 Janine
Yeah, no worries.
00:01:05 Janine
So I brought you on today because I'm I'm really trying to work out what's going on with the great resignation.
00:01:12 Janine
We've got a lot of.
00:01:12 Janine
Teachers dropping like flies out of the system and you're one of those people who've decided to make a bit.
00:01:18 Janine
Of a shift in your life.
00:01:19 Janine
So I guess I'm just wanting to find out a little bit more about what's brought that on and where you're at.
00:01:25 Megan
Yeah, no problem at all.
00:01:27 Megan
Well, to be honest I'm leaving so that I can actually hopefully help the system a.
00:01:31 Megan
Little bit more.
00:01:31 Megan
So I think for a lot of teachers they're doing full career change, whereas I'm really hoping to stay in the education system and make a bigger impact.
00:01:39 Megan
So for me, I'm actually working as a leader at the moment I've got a few weeks left, but I feel like as a leader I haven't been able to do.
00:01:46 Megan
My best work and I'm looking at our teachers and they're they're not able to do their best work at the moment for our young people, so I'm feeling really conflicted to stay and be a band aid in the system as opposed to really being on the outside and trying to influence the system externally.
00:02:01 Janine
OK, interesting, So what do you have in mind?
00:02:03 Janine
What's your plan for influencing the system from the outside?
00:02:06 Megan
Yeah, so I guess I've always come in my teaching and leading.
00:02:10 Megan
I've always had a huge well-being lens on the.
00:02:12 Megan
Work that I.
00:02:12 Megan
Do so.
00:02:13 Megan
I studied a masters of applied positive psychology.
00:02:17 Megan
And it really.
00:02:18 Megan
Influences the way I work a lot, so I'm actually going to be working in more as a consultant for schools looking at culture audits.
00:02:26 Megan
Running well being workshop.
00:02:27 Megan
And then I also have a project that I'm doing with a couple of friends slash colleagues called teach as well and we're creating sort of a community for teachers who really do want to influence well being in their school and we're supporting them to come and have a well being experienced with us, but also leave with skills and practices that they can then apply in their school.
00:02:47 Megan
Hopefully better support those that they're working closely with.
00:02:51 Janine
That sounds really awesome.
00:02:52 Janine
Well, beings like being one of those things that's been popping up everywhere on Twitter and LinkedIn.
00:02:56 Janine
You know when I've been talking to different teachers and.
00:02:59 Janine
Like what do.
00:03:00 Janine
You think is going on there with the well being for teachers in the.
00:03:02 Janine
Classroom at the.
00:03:03 Megan
Moment it's a really interesting time because I absolutely have always loved being a teacher.
00:03:09 Megan
I thought it was the best job in the world.
00:03:10 Megan
I was.
00:03:11 Megan
Very reluctant when I left to go into leadership, so for me it was very much a values.
00:03:16 Megan
UM, yeah.
00:03:17 Megan
So I was like loving my teaching job, but I also knew I could probably do more in a leadership role.
00:03:20 Megan
So I took a lot like it was a very conflicted time for me to move into leadership, and now once again the same thing like I love leadership in a school, but I'm feeling conflicted and feel like I can do more so I'm getting.
00:03:30 Megan
But yeah, it's a really interesting time because the feelings that I had about loving teaching it's really hard to find them right now.
00:03:37 Megan
It's just such a challenging time with teacher shortages that seems to be the main focus every single day.
00:03:43 Megan
Like we start the day looking at the absent list and figuring out how we can cover it.
00:03:47 Megan
No one can really do their best work right now.
00:03:49 Megan
Because we're all in survival mode and I think for a lot of teachers, especially in Melbourne, after such lengthy lock.
00:03:55 Megan
Downs they've had an experience of realizing we can work differently and we can have more autonomy and we can be a little bit slower in the way we work and now they've just been thrown back into like such a fast pace environment where the demands are really high and they're higher than ever because there's not.
00:04:10 Megan
Enough people to.
00:04:11 Megan
Do the.
00:04:11 Megan
Work, so yeah, people are really struggling in schools at the moment.
00:04:14 Megan
It's a really tricky.
00:04:17 Janine
Yeah, so you're talking about mass.
00:04:18 Janine
Absences like what?
00:04:19 Janine
What do you think is driving?
00:04:20 Janine
That is it?
00:04:21 Janine
Is it that fast pacing problem that you're not used to?
00:04:23 Janine
Is it because of COVID illnesses?
00:04:25 Janine
There's something else behind that.
00:04:27 Megan
Yeah, it's a really good question.
00:04:28 Megan
I like a lot of people, would assume it's COVID absences and now the flu season starting.
00:04:33 Megan
But I actually got to do some work with the school around what was going.
00:04:36 Megan
On for them with their absences.
00:04:38 Megan
And we got to survey the staff anonymously and find out what was happening and surprisingly number one reason was mental health.
00:04:46 Megan
We didn't really.
00:04:47 Megan
Define that, so that could be like taking a mental health day.
00:04:49 Megan
You know, like a self care day or whatever it might be.
00:04:51 Megan
But that was the number one reason people.
00:04:53 Megan
Were taking sick leave.
00:04:55 Megan
Number two was workload pressure.
00:04:57 Megan
And then #3.
00:04:58 Megan
Was COVID sorry, it was really sort of striking to see that data with this school that we did some work with.
00:05:04 Janine
Interesting and like are there schools, sort of doing programs to help with mental health in the school or like?
00:05:11 Janine
What do you think is being?
00:05:12 Janine
Done at the moment.
00:05:14 Megan
They probably are.
00:05:15 Megan
But at the same time, we're in that really tricky spot where people don't have enough time to release someone to even go to training, let alone like taking time as a team to do something all collectively together.
00:05:26 Megan
So I'd like to think that they are, and that there's some priority there, but it is really that situation where we're all doing more work than we.
00:05:33 Megan
Usually wooden covering multiple roles.
00:05:35 Megan
So taking the time to actually really directly focus on well being seems to be put to the side a little bit.
00:05:41 Megan
At the moment, for most schools.
00:05:42 Janine
OK, so so that's something that you're wanting to move into externally then.
00:05:47 Janine
So how are you approaching this?
00:05:48 Janine
If if there's a lack of time in the classroom and like what's your plan?
00:05:53 Megan
Yeah, it's a really good question, so that's why I'm pretty passionate about what we offer, would teach as well at the moment.
00:05:59 Megan
Teach as well is an after hours program which in itself is obviously a challenge 'cause I don't want people to think that they can only look after.
00:06:05 Megan
Their well being external to their school hours.
00:06:09 Megan
But the reason it is an after hours offering at the moment is for that very reason.
00:06:13 Megan
It's just to know that we can offer a well being experience and we're really hopeful that people recognize that they actually feel better once they've they've come to teachers.
00:06:19 Megan
Well, I'm at the end of each session.
00:06:20 Megan
We often feel energized and connected and well supported.
00:06:24 Megan
And like we've got some strategies to face the challenges.
00:06:27 Megan
So yeah, we're we're running it as a sort of an offering after hours, and then we coach the people to then go and apply this in their school, because what we're realizing is people at the moment aren't that likely to book A.
00:06:38 Megan
Whole day workshop.
00:06:39 Megan
With an external person to close their school and do that, or to send staff to have training and what we noticed.
00:06:45 Megan
As well is.
00:06:46 Megan
That that's cool that we looked at that data for.
00:06:48 Megan
We actually also wanted to find out for them.
00:06:50 Megan
What were the most protective factors for them?
00:06:52 Megan
So what we're actually finding supportive in their school and and the number one thing that they found the most supportive was actually colleague support.
00:07:00 Megan
So it wasn't any of these external providers.
00:07:02 Megan
It wasn't.
00:07:03 Megan
Counseling wasn't any of that sort of stuff was literally the culture of.
00:07:06 Megan
They don't care that their colleagues provided them and number two was leadership support and there was actually quite a big gap between colleagues, support and leadership support in second place.
00:07:15 Megan
So to me as well, that data really informed what we're doing with teach as well to recognize that people need to be connected with their colleagues in at school and to be able to support each others well.
00:07:24 Megan
Being in this current situation.
00:07:27 Janine
Yeah, it's it's so interesting, isn't it?
00:07:29 Janine
Because like I found that as well like in my teaching, your colleagues become your family and but not having, I guess that time and structure inside the school day to be able to take that time.
00:07:43 Janine
It's a new challenge, isn't it?
00:07:45 Janine
Uh, because you're.
00:07:45
It is.
00:07:46 Janine
There you've got.
00:07:47 Janine
These like set hours.
00:07:48 Janine
You have to be in front of the class and I know in primary schools it's way worse.
00:07:51 Janine
I couldn't even believe it.
00:07:52 Janine
I was a secondary teacher and we would work 15 out of 20 hours in front of the class, whereas the primary teachers only.
00:07:57 Janine
Got something like an hour and a half a week and I was like what is going.
00:08:01 Janine
On here.
00:08:02 Janine
How did he even get?
00:08:04 Janine
To talk to each other.
00:08:04 Janine
Into your planning, come yet alone, marking and everything else.
00:08:08 Janine
That goes into it.
00:08:09 Megan
Yeah, absolutely, but I think it can also be about just injecting small rituals and small moments of connection in a day.
00:08:16 Megan
Can even just make a huge difference as well, and so that's something that we're exploring a little bit is just how to make sure it happens every day, but even if it's just a very small opportunity, like a small window of opportunity, but just taking it and making sure we use it.
00:08:29 Janine
Are there any techniques or things that you're going to be teaching teachers that you're willing to share with us?
00:08:36 Megan
Yes, well with teach as well.
00:08:37 Megan
We really look at using coaching as a way to actually support people to sort of unpack the challenges.
00:08:43 Megan
That we're all facing.
00:08:44 Megan
At the moment.
00:08:45 Megan
So we do a bit of a like we really keep the group quite small so we can create a lot of safety and really do a lot of container building with the group so that we know that we're all holding it safely and carefully.
00:08:55 Megan
Together and then we allow people to do case giving where they can actually talk through well being challenge they're facing in the school, and then the rest of the brutal actors coaches.
00:09:05 Megan
Uhm, we're doing a lot of journaling.
00:09:07 Megan
We're doing a lot of, you know, slowing down to problem solve a lot of mindfulness, yeah?
00:09:12 Megan
So there are just a few of the examples.
00:09:14 Megan
I guess what we do with teach as well.
00:09:17 Janine
Listen, do you have like a case study that you'd be able to share?
00:09:19 Janine
If I can experience the teachers had where they've found it grade or.
00:09:24 Janine
Uh, we have experienced some some change or growth for themselves.
00:09:28
Let's see.
00:09:29 Megan
Yeah, it's it's really interesting 'cause I find even just being a coach and not necessarily the case.
00:09:33 Megan
Giver is actually very impactful as well in those moments as well so I can learn from the people that give their case and it can influence my work as well.
00:09:42 Megan
But yeah, we did have someone share share some experiences of just even losing that connection with their team and how.
00:09:48 Megan
Meetings are being cancelled to support their well being, so it was like you know you guys.
00:09:51 Megan
Are all time for, so let's cancel out.
00:09:53 Megan
Meetings, but then they were feeling really isolated in their school 'cause they weren't seeing their colleagues.
00:09:58 Megan
They weren't having a moment to talk to their leaders and ask questions, 'cause I would then have to go find them within the school 'cause they weren't seeing them in the meeting.
00:10:04 Megan
So we really sort of unpack towel like you shouldn't really.
00:10:07 Megan
It depends on the in, like the intention behind a meeting really like.
00:10:12 Megan
Sure, scrap the informative meeting that you know.
00:10:15 Megan
If there's nothing to share and it was just like sort of ticking a box that you had to have a meeting.
00:10:19 Megan
But maybe there needs to be meetings where there is ritual of connection happening.
00:10:22 Megan
Yeah, so that was actually a really fascinating case, and the person who gave that case ended up writing a whole blog post about it and became an article that like, yeah, I saw quite frequently on different platforms and it was really nice to see.
00:10:33 Megan
And then we heard back that that's cool actually, then started looking at ways that.
00:10:36 Megan
They could still connect and still just take 5 or 10 minutes to come together as a team.
00:10:40 Megan
It doesn't.
00:10:41 Megan
Have to be that one hour long meeting that.
00:10:42 Megan
But they thought they were doing the right thing by canceling meetings and giving people their time back.
00:10:46 Megan
But what they were doing was creating kind of a silo system in their school where where people didn't feel like a team anymore.
00:10:53 Janine
Yeah, I get.
00:10:54 Janine
That I'm I'm really lucky I I work in an organization that's it's small.
00:10:58 Janine
We got about 15 staff members, but connection is something we're really focusing on at the moment, and especially because we've all been working from home and it's made such a massive difference like I feel like that's the place I now feel most connected to in my life.
00:11:12 Janine
Uhm, even compared to my family and my friends because like there's such an effort and a time put into it.
00:11:19 Janine
But it's so hard to do in a school and.
00:11:21 Janine
You know it's.
00:11:22 Janine
So interesting Megan, because I've I've done probably 11 of these interviews before talking to you and.
00:11:29 Janine
Every single person I'm talking to is talking about connection as being.
00:11:33 Janine
A solution to everything we're going through and I'm it's not what I expected when I started out.
00:11:38 Janine
Like I don't know how many of the listeners know this, but when I started this podcast, my initial intention was to write a book.
00:11:44 Janine
Not to a podcast at.
00:11:45 Janine
All but I.
00:11:45 Janine
I couldn't write anything but negative things and.
00:11:49 Janine
I didn't know what the solutions were.
00:11:50 Janine
I had ideas about what they could be and what the system should look.
00:11:53 Janine
Like, but connection wasn't on the list.
00:11:56 Janine
I didn't.
00:11:57 Janine
I didn't expect that to be the number one sort of thing that was coming out of the interviews, and it seems to be the thing the cook the core thing.
00:12:05 Megan
That's really fascinating, yeah?
00:12:05 Janine
If people just want.
00:12:06 Janine
To be in relationship.
00:12:08 Janine
With each other.
00:12:09 Janine
Yeah, you know, yeah, like yeah.
00:12:12 Megan
So I wonder if it would have been a different answer if lockdowns hadn't happened.
00:12:16 Janine
Well, yeah, and I wonder, yeah, a lot of things would have maybe been different, of course.
00:12:20 Janine
Yeah, maybe it's timing.
00:12:21 Janine
So I've got to get keep this going for a little bit longer.
00:12:23 Janine
And see if that changes, but.
00:12:26 Janine
When we talked, you know a little pre interview.
00:12:29 Janine
You mentioned you had a little compass that you were using to help guide your work with the teachers.
00:12:35 Janine
Do not share a little bit of.
00:12:36 Megan
About that, yeah, sure.
00:12:38 Megan
So teachers well was actually born during lock down, so that was actually a a a time where I was actually just, you know, talking to other people in the industry about what was going on for us and how I was concerned for teachers in the in the field at the time and teachers.
00:12:54 Megan
Well really came about when we were going in and out of.
00:12:57 Megan
Lockdowns, so we're noticing that.
00:12:58 Megan
That was just such a hard time for teachers.
00:13:01 Megan
And I was actually really concerned for them, each time schools reopened 'cause the pace was just so fast and I noticed a lot of schools did really intentional work to look after their staff well being during lockdown, but then couldn't really apply the same thing like when the fast pace work is happening in.
00:13:15 Megan
A school.
00:13:16 Megan
So yeah, we were kind of navigating this conversation, just not sure how.
00:13:20 Megan
We can respond.
00:13:21 Megan
But yeah, just really playing around with it.
00:13:23 Megan
And as we were discussing one day, we just started scribbling ideas down and we actually, like Scribd.
00:13:28 Megan
It all and.
00:13:28 Megan
Drew some pictures.
00:13:29 Megan
And what really came out of that?
00:13:30 Megan
Was we actually?
00:13:31 Megan
Did map out a compass.
00:13:34 Megan
And so the compass essentially has four four points, and they're our values that really guide how we work with teach as well.
00:13:41 Megan
So our true north is purpose, which we think every teacher ultimately comes to the field with a sense of purpose.
00:13:46 Megan
It's very meaningful work, but right now it's really hard to see that purpose at times.
00:13:51 Megan
Maybe there's a bit of fog clouding it, you know?
00:13:53 Megan
Maybe the workload is just so huge that that purpose doesn't feel like they're really connected to it right now.
00:13:58 Megan
So what we discovered was it's it's not so much about spending time to set that true north, but the other compass points are really important and we need to actually spend time at each of those as well.
00:14:06 Megan
So the other three is curiosity, compassion and courage.
00:14:13 Janine
Yeah, so interesting.
00:14:16 Janine
Yeah, compassion like that's that connection thing as well isn't it?
00:14:19 Janine
And courage gosh, you know that's like that.
00:14:22 Janine
That's great when a brown.
00:14:23 Janine
Stuff there too because.
00:14:24 Janine
You can't be brave without vulnerability.
00:14:26 Janine
And I think teachers are just super vulnerable right now and students so honorable.
00:14:32 Janine
I was actually talking to my nephew the other day and he's just turned.
00:14:36 Janine
16 and he's like all my favorite.
00:14:39 Janine
Teachers have less.
00:14:41 Janine
And I just don't see like you know, he's he's really into music and he feels like the music department for him is just fall into pieces.
00:14:50 Janine
And it's not what it was, and that was the only thing really keeping him engaged in school, so I can just see like.
00:14:55 Janine
That's really sad for him.
00:14:58 Janine
Yeah, but that vulnerability piece like it's it's huge.
00:15:02 Janine
And then what?
00:15:03 Janine
What was it?
00:15:05 Janine
Yeah, that's so funny, isn't it?
00:15:07 Janine
Because I think like.
00:15:09 Janine
Being curious as a teacher, it's not just about being curious about the content you're teaching, but it's being curious about the people you're working with and and yourself and how you're growing and learning and what challenges you're facing so.
00:15:22 Megan
Yeah, absolutely.
00:15:23 Janine
I don't know.
00:15:24 Megan
And like we thought of that one sort of came about two that we were like we need to be curious as to what's going on like we can see all these issues but if we go get a little bit more curious about then we can dive a little bit deeper.
00:15:33 Megan
You can really unpack them and then if we hold a bit of compassion for ourselves and the others we're working with and our young people, we can maybe have the courage to face them and and change them a little bit.
00:15:43 Megan
Or the influence the system a little bit more so that's sort of how the compass sort of came about.
00:15:47 Janine
Yeah, I like that because it's not just making assumptions that you know what's happening.
00:15:51 Janine
For people either.
00:15:52 Janine
Like that study that you did in, that's cool.
00:15:54 Janine
Like that's actually really enlightening, because it would have been very easy to assume that people were burnt out or that they had COVID or.
00:16:04 Janine
Whatever ask verbally.
00:16:05 Janine
Yeah, interesting.
00:16:09 Janine
Sort of more long term like I think like what it, what ripples are you hoping that this project is going to send out into the world?
00:16:17 Megan
I actually really like the fact.
00:16:18 Megan
That you use the word ripples.
00:16:20 Speaker 2
Should be.
00:16:20 Megan
I think that's why we always play on words.
00:16:22 Megan
We always think about the well like it's actually a sense it can drink from the well and there's.
00:16:25 Megan
A lot of imagery.
00:16:26 Megan
That in metaphors that we often use.
00:16:27
Boo Boo.
00:16:27 Megan
So yeah, so we are we.
00:16:29 Megan
Use the word ripple a little bit when we're talking about our product.
00:16:33 Megan
But yeah, I guess essentially takes as well really began as like let's hold some spaces and people that are finding things hard.
00:16:39 Megan
That's essentially what it started out as it was like, let's see if there's any other teachers feeling the way we are, and we can offer this where we just come together and we hold that space and we see what we can do.
00:16:48 Megan
But it's.
00:16:48 Megan
Evolved over time.
00:16:49 Megan
To recognize that people were getting a lot out of the experience.
00:16:53 Megan
And that it would be a really great thing to be.
00:16:55 Megan
Applying with teams.
00:16:56 Megan
In schools, but as we've found out, like colleagues, support was way more important than these external providers coming in or having a one day workshop on resilience or anything like that.
00:17:05 Megan
So we're really, really hopeful that we can work with some pretty small cohorts to have that experience together, but then to that they have the confidence to then go and apply.
00:17:13 Megan
Different strategies and processes in their school to support their their teams and their colleagues as well to really stay in the work to be a united front and to support each other as they move for.
00:17:23 Megan
Good, I'm sorry.
00:17:24 Megan
Yeah, we're actually running it now as a longer program, so it used to sort of just be a community circle where people could sign up and drop in, and then you know we might not see them again.
00:17:33 Megan
But now we actually have cohorts for a whole term, so we come together once a week and we go through different skills and processes that they can use.
00:17:39 Megan
And we do one on one coaching with them at the aim that they will then go.
00:17:43 Megan
And apply this in that school.
00:17:46 Janine
That's really nice.
00:17:47 Janine
If you if you had.
00:17:48 Janine
Like out of all these tips and processes, if there was one that you could share just for our listeners, if.
00:17:53 Janine
They're really struggling right now.
00:17:54 Janine
Uhm, what would you recommend?
00:17:56 Janine
What would be the starting point for them?
00:17:59 Megan
Yeah, that's a really, really tricky question, but I think it's about seeing through the the.
00:18:03 Megan
Mess, so finding a way to slow down because I think at the moment teachers are working so fast and just finding a way to pause and really cut through the noise.
00:18:13 Megan
And just really looking at the problem because at the moment it feels like a mountain like it absolutely feels like a mountainous problem and I think it's just about slowing down and actually really just recognizing what they can do, like like taking it as really small steps of.
00:18:27 Megan
Well, actually I can do this thing right now.
00:18:29 Megan
I can solve this problem right now.
00:18:31 Megan
The rest are too big, but let's just chip away at the really really small ones.
00:18:33 Megan
For now, and I think having a trusted colleague or a mentor or somebody that you just feel really safe to talk to that's in the industry is just really important is actually feeling heard right now.
00:18:44 Megan
Is is really important to move forward?
00:18:47 Janine
Yeah yeah, and guys if you feel like you're alone in your school like I've definitely been in schools where I just did not fit in, it was a small school and they were much older than me.
00:18:57 Janine
You know social media is there guys like reach out, reach out to to me.
00:19:01 Janine
You can contact each other podcasts and you know we'll we'll connect, but.
00:19:07 Janine
Yeah, like I.
00:19:09 Janine
I'm so interested in, uh, the foot has slipped out of my head, but you would.
00:19:13 Janine
You were talking about, UM.
00:19:17 Janine
Yeah, I've forgotten that's alright.
00:19:20 Janine
It happens.
00:19:20 Janine
All human.
00:19:21 Janine
We all make mistakes.
00:19:22 Janine
Thank you the message through.
00:19:23 Janine
The mess up.
00:19:24 Janine
It actually reminds me, you know of that.
00:19:26 Janine
You you know the little grid that that they say put your important in your urgent items in it and then cross out one of.
00:19:33 Janine
Them isn't it like urgent and important needs to happen now, but they're unimportant.
00:19:37 Janine
Non urgent stuff, just don't.
00:19:38 Janine
Do it like you can validate it or just don't don't do that thing and I think that it's funny 'cause a lot of teachers have been talking about ministrative loads and things like that and.
00:19:50 Janine
And actually I found as a teacher that's the sort of stuff that gets you into trouble, isn't it because you want to go on excursions with kids?
00:19:55 Janine
But then you're like Oh no, I have to get permission forms and I have to fill in a risk assessment and that's too hard.
00:20:01 Janine
And so you just don't do.
00:20:02 Janine
It, but that's.
00:20:03 Janine
The stuff you really want to do, so it's a dilemma, but if it's important, you know that God, that's gotta go and importantly, style.
00:20:10 Janine
I think.
00:20:11 Janine
But I I'm a big fan of just not doing things.
00:20:15 Janine
If you don't have to, you know, and I'm the first person to admit.
00:20:18 Janine
Even to you know my old CEO, he he would send us a lot of emails that looked urgent.
00:20:23 Janine
He'd be like I need this today and I need you to stress about this thing and what's going on.
00:20:26 Janine
And I found that if I ignored that for 20.
00:20:29 Janine
4 hours that problem would go away.
00:20:31 Janine
Every single time and if it was important, he would remind me again in a week, you know.
00:20:37 Janine
And and I was I said to his face, this is what I do, and he would sort of laugh about it.
00:20:42 Janine
And he didn't mind that that what it meant is like I could stress about these for an hour right now.
00:20:46 Janine
Or I can just keep doing what I'm doing and worry about it if it comes back up and I think I think that reactive thing that we all have when we're at work and and for teaching, it's particularly important because you've got students in front of you reacting all the time and giving you stimulus and creating like little goodness knows what fires and and you know.
00:21:06 Janine
Something I learned in my masters degree sense, so it's off topic, but.
00:21:10 Janine
I remember us learning about the Chinese education system and we watched a video of a preschool in China and it was just so different to my understanding of.
00:21:18 Janine
What early learning was?
00:21:19 Janine
Because I'm I was used to something that was quite disciplined or they'd watch over you.
00:21:23 Janine
And yeah, you'd go and you'd play and you do the things and you'd have.
00:21:26 Janine
Your relationships, but if the kids in these Chinese school, we're
00:21:29 Janine
Getting into a fight.
00:21:31 Janine
And one of the kids hit the other.
00:21:33 Janine
The adults wouldn't intervene.
00:21:35 Janine
And they'd let the kids build the skills to like battle it out amongst themselves and set their own boundaries and go, hey, you shouldn't be hitting me and and they have a conversation and then eventually they'd resolve it on their own.
00:21:48 Janine
And I was like how much teacher time would that save?
00:21:51 Janine
Actually, like how much time have I spent with your eight kids being like?
00:21:55 Janine
Why are you arguing in this group project right now?
00:21:58 Janine
You know you guys need to learn to work as a team.
00:22:00 Janine
Actually, if you leave them to.
00:22:02 Janine
Sort it out.
00:22:03 Janine
Sometimes, not always, but sometimes.
00:22:05 Janine
It'll resolve itself you.
00:22:08 Janine
So bit of a random story there, but I think I think there's a lesson there that slow the yeah and and trusting maybe do you reckon?
00:22:17 Megan
Yeah, that's a good point.
00:22:18 Megan
'cause I think teachers are so desperate to look after their young people like they really want to do the best for their young people.
00:22:25 Megan
And so we're always working so fast because that's what we're trying to do.
00:22:27 Megan
Like that's always current like the front and center what?
00:22:30 Megan
What teachers are doing so it's a really good example really of just some you know, to slow down a little bit and young people are just grateful that you're there.
00:22:37 Megan
You're teaching them and just let them work it out a little bit themselves too.
00:22:41 Janine
Yeah, UM, so let me ask you this question, what is your wish for education?
00:22:48 Megan
Yeah, really good question.
00:22:51 Megan
Look, to be honest, I really hope that the system learns to slow down, so I think at the moment no one let the teachers are not to blame.
00:22:58 Megan
The school leaders are not to blame everyone in survival mode right now, and it's actually the system and the conditions of work and all of that that needs to be looked at.
00:23:07 Megan
So until about how?
00:23:08 Megan
Hence I just can't see that you know things are going to shift too quickly in schools, so I really hope that things can just slow down a little bit and the conditions can change a little bit for those that have worked in a school they know, like even taking a toilet break is really tricky.
00:23:22 Megan
Even having a moment to eat your food can be really tricky in the day, like it's just things like that that we've always normalized in in schools, and I think we're at a point now.
00:23:30 Megan
You know where it's really challenging work.
00:23:33 Megan
It's really fast pace, and if you can't even.
00:23:35 Megan
Take a break to go the bathroom.
00:23:37 Megan
You know it's it's we're asking a lot of people that work in a school right now.
00:23:41 Megan
So I think yeah, just I want the system to slow down, 'cause I think that's going to be more nurturing for our young people to like.
00:23:47 Megan
We're not modeling the best work conditions for them either.
00:23:50 Megan
The way teachers are working, so I'd like to see.
00:23:53 Megan
Yeah, things just slow down and allow a bit more space in schools because even for our young people they they need space.
00:23:58 Megan
They need time.
00:23:59 Megan
They need to slow down to be creative.
00:24:01 Megan
And to think and to problem solve?
00:24:03 Megan
Yeah, we don't give the same thing to the adults working in the school.
00:24:07 Janine
That's so true, and like deep where it comes from that isn't it?
00:24:10 Janine
It's otherwise you're just skating the surface.
00:24:13 Janine
Absolutely yeah.
00:24:14 Janine
Do you have any ideas of?
00:24:16 Janine
What could change?
00:24:17 Janine
To allow for that.
00:24:19 Megan
Well, it's a really tricky one because I know we're in a teacher shortage.
00:24:22 Megan
So at the moment it's sort of like the dream would be that everyone comes in and they know what their day is going to look like, and they know where their free time might be.
00:24:30 Megan
Or they can create that free time and they can create spacious time with their students as well to be like, you know, this is when we're doing circle time, but then we'll have some quiet time where you can peel off.
00:24:38 Megan
And work on something creative.
00:24:40 Megan
With them, but at the moment I think because people are covering so many classes or they're combining classes or you're covering each other duties, it's not happening right now, but that essentially that's what I would like to see is that a teacher could actually know what their day is going to look like ahead of time to be able to plan for it appropriately as well.
00:24:57 Megan
So for that to happen, I think would need more.
00:25:00 Megan
Teachers in schools and would be the industry to be a bit more appealing to attract people to actually train and then want to stay up.
00:25:08 Megan
Yes, there's a lot a lot to be done, really.
00:25:11 Janine
I'm gonna ask you a controversial question.
00:25:14 Janine
Do you believe in smaller class sizes?
00:25:17 Speaker 2
I do.
00:25:18 Megan
I do, yeah.
00:25:19 Janine
Look, you talk you're talking to.
00:25:20 Megan
Someone who's worked in the alternative education system my whole career?
00:25:24 Megan
So I've essentially worked with young people where mainstream school has not worked for them at all, and that's why they end up in our schools and the the biggest thing at the center of all of our schools is small.
00:25:33 Megan
Class sizes and yeah, I honestly think when schools are at their best.
00:25:38 Megan
It feels more like a family environment as opposed to, you know, a big school system.
00:25:42 Megan
So it's where everyone knows each other really well.
00:25:44 Megan
And yeah, it just feels a bit like a big family and people can eat together and get to know each other really well on a deep level in their classroom.
00:25:51 Megan
And you know, have peers and problem solved together and like sort out conflict together as a class group.
00:25:57 Megan
Yeah, and I think those things are only really possible in a small.
00:25:59 Megan
Smaller system, smaller class sizes.
00:26:02 Janine
What would be your ideal class 9?
00:26:05 Megan
Uhm, that is a good question.
00:26:06 Megan
Turn off what?
00:26:07 Janine
Or or student to.
00:26:08 Janine
The ratio would however you wanna, yeah?
00:26:11 Megan
I've worked in high schools in alternative system and at the moment I would say the one I'm in.
00:26:16 Megan
This class sizes are slightly too big, so I'm gonna say probably about 12 students would be perfect.
00:26:21 Megan
I know that that's like idealistic and a dream and so far away from the reality right now.
00:26:25 Megan
But I think 12 students, one teacher would.
00:26:27 Megan
Be an absolute beautiful.
00:26:29 Megan
Size to have and I think that that's where that community can really form in a nice, beautiful way.
00:26:35 Janine
You know, I wonder like UM.
00:26:38 Janine
If there's a way that these kind of things can be done if people think a little bit differently, like you know there's lots of savings that could be made on relief teachers and all sorts of things that if if you put the money in upfront, who knows it might.
00:26:53 Janine
Actually pay for itself so.
00:26:55 Janine
I'm a little bit of a journey to.
00:26:57 Janine
Try and solve that problem.
00:26:59 Janine
I'm not an economist or or accountant, but I'm I'm going to eventually go to someone who is and see if we can find a solution because.
00:27:09 Janine
I just think that's the answer for me.
00:27:11 Janine
Like small class sizes.
00:27:13 Janine
If connection is the answer to our problem.
00:27:16 Janine
Smaller class sizes have to be the thing, and you know John Hattie can say till the cows come home that it doesn't make a difference to shooting outcomes.
00:27:23 Janine
But there's more to life than than what's on the page and.
00:27:29 Janine
Yeah, there's so much more to it, so I just that's yeah, it's an interesting one and and and it's not not everyone agrees and I get that, but come.
00:27:39 Janine
You know, children shouldn't be inefficiency.
00:27:42 Janine
In my mind, you know.
00:27:45 Megan
Yeah, I've actually been reflecting on what draws teachers through the work, and I think there's like different ways to look at it, and I think for some people, especially in high schools, they might be driven by the content like they're so passionate about the subject area.
00:27:56 Megan
They chose to teach.
00:27:58 Megan
And for them they just want to deliver that content.
00:28:00 Megan
But then there's others that are drawn because they're so people centered and they want to work with young people and.
00:28:05 Megan
They're looking at the whole person and their development, and I think that that's dumb.
00:28:08 Megan
Yeah, I've been thinking about that.
00:28:09 Megan
Even just your comment about John Hardy.
00:28:11 Megan
For me, like I was drawn to the work for the development side of it and really caring about young people and wanting to see, you know, change, happen and growth.
00:28:19 Megan
Yes, I just think that like there be, some people would be like.
00:28:22 Megan
I don't really mind what my class sizes.
00:28:24 Megan
I just want to deliver my content and I just want to know how many periods I have a day and that sort of thing.
00:28:28 Megan
So yeah, I just want it really fascinating as well.
00:28:30 Megan
Just hearing different people respond to that.
00:28:33 Megan
That particular issue about class sizes.
00:28:35 Megan
I think it's driven from different motivations.
00:28:35 Speaker 2
You know?
00:28:38 Janine
Yeah, and maybe maybe there's something in.
00:28:40 Janine
That let's just go on under one will go off on one.
00:28:43 Janine
Now let's brainstorm.
00:28:45 Janine
So I want to be solutions focused, so like let's say you had those people who who just love delivering content, and you know, like we have that in universities all the time, there's lecturers and they're different tutors and there's many, many people in a lecture and fuel.
00:28:59 Janine
People in a cheater Gray.
00:29:00 Janine
And like I think schools have possibly experimented with that here and there, but maybe there's something sort of to that, like for the teachers as well as just being like, well, you've got a really passionate subject expert here.
00:29:13 Janine
They're really great at delivering that and and kids will say if you interview kids, they actually don't say they want smaller.
00:29:18 Janine
Class sizes if you talk.
00:29:20 Janine
To them, what they'll tell you is they want to teach his passion without content, which I have always surprised about every single time.
00:29:27 Janine
But they want to know that that teaches passionate about the content and that part that teach your kids about them.
00:29:32 Janine
And it doesn't matter to them how many people they can competing with, or however many other people are there in the room.
00:29:39 Janine
So like, I wonder if there's something to that is like letting those people shine in that way and do that thing that they're great.
00:29:47 Janine
Because kids love that and then having those spaces for connection with the teachers who love that because not all teachers want that.
00:29:55 Janine
They're not good at it.
00:29:56 Janine
They might be uncomfortable with it.
00:29:58 Janine
They might feel it forced upon them.
00:30:00 Janine
And and putting people where they should be, what do you reckon?
00:30:03 Janine
Like, what's your thoughts on that?
00:30:05 Megan
Yeah, that's not something I've thought about too much before, but as you're talking it through, I started thinking about how it could, you know, could sort of look like if someone is like I'm a subject matter expert and that's why I'm driven to this work and absolutely adore doing it and I can behavior manager a huge group because I'm so engaging.
00:30:20 Megan
In the way I teach, you know, like they could have a.
00:30:23 Megan
Different structure for their class group.
00:30:24 Megan
But then you might have the health teacher who's like I really want to get deeper with the young people and I want to be able to hear all of their voices in a class setting.
00:30:31 Megan
And I want to work, you know, in a more community focused way, and that could be a smaller class size.
00:30:36 Megan
Like maybe we've just gone like the way we focus on education.
00:30:39 Megan
It's almost like we have a one size fits all approach in mainstream schools especially.
00:30:43 Megan
But maybe it is about just exploring very different models and different ways to do.
00:30:47 Megan
It even within the one.
00:30:47 Megan
School who knows really? Yes.
00:30:48 Janine
Wow, yeah it feels like you're like.
00:30:51 Janine
Well, we're cookie cutting.
00:30:52 Janine
The kids were expecting them all to do the same subjects and to behave the same way and whatever else, but actually we're cooking.
00:30:56 Janine
Cutting the teachers as well.
00:30:59 Janine
And everyone is unique and different, and they bring different skills to the table and.
00:31:03 Janine
I'm just curious like I I'm just gonna throw out a challenge if there's any school leaders of small schools out there who are willing to try this, like what?
00:31:11 Janine
What would it look like if you actually pull do stuff together and ask them what they wanted their ideal job to look like and then made it work?
00:31:21 Janine
How would that change things?
00:31:23 Janine
I'd be so curious to see that and if if you go off and you pull that off guys, can you get back to me with an email?
00:31:28 Janine
I want to know all about it and and, you know, feel free to take all the credit.
00:31:33 Janine
I don't need any credit, but I'd love.
00:31:35 Janine
I'd love to know.
00:31:36 Janine
How that works, that's cool.
00:31:39 Janine
Alright, so I've got another another question here.
00:31:41 Janine
This is this is the last one on the list of the.
00:31:43 Janine
Things that I ask everyone.
00:31:45 Janine
And that is what do you think is the potential for education to heal the planet?
00:31:51 Megan
Yeah, that's a big question as well.
00:31:53 Megan
I I think education is such a special place to work in because ultimately you are working with young people who are the future generation.
00:32:01 Megan
I'm sorry the possibilities of what those young people go forward and do with their lives is endless really, and and I think there's some really special things happening with younger generations at the moment where I'm envious sometimes or what they're learning and the skills they're developing that I didn't get to do when I was a.
00:32:16 Megan
Student like I just think their social emotional literacy is so much higher than.
00:32:20 Megan
Our generations got to have.
00:32:22 Megan
I think their understanding of.
00:32:24 Megan
Themselves is a lot higher, like they're very self aware.
00:32:27 Megan
Umm, they're they're learning about the planet and climate change and how they can take action, and they've got a lot more confidence to speak up and be advocates.
00:32:35 Megan
And they've got platforms to use like social media and things like that as well, which obviously can be a blessing.
00:32:40 Megan
And a curse.
00:32:41 Megan
Uhm, so I just think yeah, it's a really special place to work with young people and just to work alongside them and see you know what they're going to work on in the.
00:32:49 Megan
So so yeah, I think the opportunity is really endless.
00:32:53 Megan
Hopefully not too late to save our planet.
00:32:56 Megan
But ultimately, I think schools are such special places, and I think it's you know it's a pretty huge huge opportunity that people have to work alongside young people.
00:33:04 Megan
And just to facilitate, you know their their journey really and just allow them to explore it and see where they where they're headed and what they're going to do in the future.
00:33:16 Janine
I want to ask you something.
00:33:20 Janine
It's been on my mind a bit lately and and in the circles that I've been working in this conversation is like you know your answer sort of was like the potential to heal.
00:33:29 Janine
The planet comes through the students and I feel like sometimes there's a lot of pressure on young people to solve.
00:33:36 Janine
Some of the problems that we can't solve.
00:33:37 Janine
All we've created or that our grandparents are created.
00:33:40 Janine
Or whatever, often.
00:33:41 Janine
Like what what are?
00:33:42 Janine
Your thoughts on this idea of students being like activists and active citizens and and you know doing that work?
00:33:51 Megan
Yeah, it's a really.
00:33:52 Megan
Good question, UM, I guess like I admire their energy and their confidence.
00:33:56 Megan
To do that?
00:33:57 Megan
But it is actually really unfortunate like.
00:33:59 Megan
I feel like.
00:34:00 Megan
They're doing it 'cause I have no choice.
00:34:01 Megan
Yes, because if they don't do something if they're not loud about it, like their planet is actually at a point now where if they're not doing anything, their future is actually in jeopardy.
00:34:12 Megan
So it's actually sort of, you know, the generations that came before them that have put them in this position where they actually probably feel obliged to be an advocate or an activist.
00:34:20 Megan
Store I'm sorry you know.
00:34:21 Megan
I feel like there's a lot.
00:34:22 Megan
Of pressure on.
00:34:22 Megan
Them as well, and they're probably feeling a lot of things we didn't have to feel when we're younger 'cause we were so unaware of the crisis and the damage we were doing to the planet, and that the generations before us had done.
00:34:33 Megan
Whereas right now they've got so much information and it must be a really unsettling time for them too.
00:34:37 Megan
So I actually feel like it's it shouldn't be on them.
00:34:40 Megan
And it's actually.
00:34:41 Megan
The generations that came before them that needs to do the repair and and guide them and allow them to have the future they want and it shouldn't have to be centered around activism and changing things and saving the planet.
00:34:51 Janine
Yeah, but do you think there's a place that?
00:34:54 Janine
In education.
00:34:57 Megan
For the young people.
00:34:59 Megan
Oh, absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
00:35:01 Megan
I think there definitely is, but I just don't want him to feel obliged to have to.
00:35:04 Megan
Take that path.
00:35:06 Janine
Yeah, yeah, so.
00:35:07 Janine
So here's a question.
00:35:08 Janine
Then, like what's the role of a teacher in this?
00:35:10 Janine
Like what?
00:35:11 Janine
Our our teachers activists, are they there to heal the planet or are they there to just, you know, teach kids how to grow up and do their thing be their best.
00:35:23 Megan
Ah, that's a really good question.
00:35:24 Megan
I like to.
00:35:24 Megan
Think that teachers?
00:35:27 Megan
Support young people to be really critical consumers of the information in the world that they're.
00:35:30 Megan
Entering, so I feel like that's the teachers role more than anything, so not necessarily to teach them to change the planet or anything like that, but just to give them the skills and the strategies to know how to be critical of what they're hearing.
00:35:42 Megan
And what they're learning and then to make their own informed choices that way.
00:35:46 Megan
Uhm, yeah, that makes sense, yeah?
00:35:49 Janine
It takes total sense, awesome.
00:35:51 Janine
Well, did you have anything else you want to share about your great new project?
00:35:55 Janine
Is it teacher?
00:35:56 Janine
Well, yeah, but that you've been working on future as well.
00:35:57 Megan
Takes as well, yeah.
00:35:59 Janine
Yeah, that that you want to share before we fully head off.
00:36:03 Megan
Uh, my look.
00:36:04 Megan
We're about to go.
00:36:05 Megan
We're about to start sharing our term 3 offering so if anyone was thinking about signing up to a well being community, we are about to start sharing the term 3 information.
00:36:14 Megan
So I guess if people are interested we are teacherswell.com and you can also find us on Instagram under teach as well. Yeah, so we'll be starting to share some information about our.
00:36:23 Megan
Term 3 offering and we'll have a free information meeting.
00:36:26 Megan
Great session in a couple of weeks as well, so that'll be going out pretty.
00:36:29 Megan
Right?
00:36:30 Janine
Awesome and that's for Australian teachers.
00:36:32 Janine
I'm guessing.
00:36:33 Janine
Do you have anything like would would it be accessible for people outside of Australia?
00:36:38 Megan
Yeah, it's actually so far we've had teachers from New Zealand as well, so we actually we put all the time zones essentially on our offering for Australia and New Zealand and and yeah, so because it runs after hours I guess.
00:36:50 Megan
It wouldn't be too far fetched to think people could sign up if it was morning overseas somewhere and they wanted to sign up, but ultimately we've had Australian teachers and New Zealand teachers so far.
00:37:00 Janine
Excellent thanks good for our listeners to know.
00:37:04 Janine
Well, best of.
00:37:05 Janine
Luck with your project that you're going to be kicking off.
00:37:07 Janine
I know you're still in a school for a little while longer.
00:37:10 Janine
But it's so exciting what you're doing and it's it's really nice to hear that there are people out there doing that.
00:37:16 Janine
Good work to help teachers I know.
00:37:18 Janine
That it's much.
00:37:19 Janine
Needed at the moment, so thanks for all that you're doing there and.
00:37:24 Janine
Yeah, I hope it.
00:37:25 Janine
Works out really well.
00:37:27 Megan
Thank you.
00:37:28 Janine
And thanks for joining us on teaching healer.
00:37:31 Megan
No problem, thanks so much for having me.
00:37:32 Janine
Thanks Megan.
